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MCI Think-Tank

Discussion in 'MCInfected 2.0 Discussion' started by Nick, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. Nick

    Nick Well-Known Member

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    I've collected about 3 videos from a youtuber a like (they are game devs) and they explain why games work/not work, and what makes a good game. I thought it would be a good idea to have everyone say what they interpret from each video and how Ben + Jack can use these stratagems to their advantage. I will be posting the videos in a list and saying what I interpret from them





    What I interpret from this video:

    • Strength of items and abilities in games slowly increases, rendering past stuff obsolete
    • Play2Win games are mostly affected by this, because old players have much more items than new ones
    • Adding special items with abilities that cannot be directly compared to one another can counter power creep
    • Long term, online games need to keep power creep in check




    What I interpret from this video:

    • Having some infected classes slightly better than others is a good thing
    • As one class becomes dominate, players learn how to counter them
    • This creates a loop of people using different classes
    • Imbalances are good, so no one strategy/class is considered the best




    What I interpret from this video:

    • Rewarding someone every time they do a task is not the best way to keep someone playing
    • Many games (including mci) rely on "skinner boxes", or grinding to keep players engaged
    • There are better, more effective ways to keep players engaged than simply just grinding for more stuff

    Well, that's all I have for now folks. Tell me what you think of these videos, as I might post more of these videos. I'll see you nerds in the comments :p
     
  2. MutatedGrape

    MutatedGrape Well-Known Member

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    Most of these have already been brought to Ben and Jack for quite some time, I'm not sure how to interpret from something that's been said for as long as I can remember. But for the things that HAVE been new, I can interpret the same as you that slight imbalance is a pretty good thing to have. But infected kits I'm 100% sure aren't just "slighty" unbalanced.

    MCI definitely relies on "skinner boxes," but that's what makes a lot of the experience, prestiging is a huge factor in what makes the game different imo. I think it's fine just the way it is, not much else needs to happen, a massive problem is how much the cookies you gain fluctuates like crazy depending on how many players are online, or boosters/events. This causes players to not come online when there's like 10 players on, because that's only about a tenth of how much they would earn if they were to come on a full server.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
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  3. Nick

    Nick Well-Known Member

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    I never said it was a bad thing, but they should add more ways to keep players online
     
  4. Rockin

    Rockin Well-Known Member

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    Of course you can always increase the cookie multiplier based on the players online, example:
    4-20 players: 3x cookies
    21-40 players: 2x cookies
    41+ players: 1x cookies

    And hopefully It could be coded to keep cookies earned from wins and participation normal (as 1x cookies) as they are based off playing the game and don't differentiate based on players online.

    I know that the amount of cookies we earn is fine, probably too much if anything, but rapidly decreases as the player count decreases. Increasing the cookie multiplier with little players will do exactly opposite of what they do now: "Oh, only 10 players on, I won't be earning many cookies."

    Instead It would be "Sweet, triple cookies!" which players will say until there's over 20 players online which then becomes "Sweet, double cookies!" until there's 40 players online which then becomes "Sweet, full server!"

    If our player count was high I wouldn't suggest this, but it's not.

    Another thing, I've only seen one person bring this up in the past, I don't remember who it was but he was just laughed at. Double cookies should have never been introduced. There are a lot of players that don't come online or aren't active unless double cookies is on and that's because it was introduced to the game in the first place. And you can't really say "No they're just bored of the game." Because if they were bored of playing, they wouldn't come on at all. The suggestion that this person spoke of was basically "Make double cookies permanent." But it seemed to have been taken the wrong way. People thought he was just cookie hungry. What he meant was doubling the normal amount of cookies earned, so 4 cookies for a survivor bonus is just a normal multiplier, and no such thing as "double cookies" would longer exist. Don't introduce a higher multiplier and people will be satisfied to be always earning the full potential of cookie production. And as for boosters, change a cookie booster to "1.5x multiplier" and an old cookie booster to "x2 multiplier." This means a cookie booster will increase your cookies earned by 50%, which is +2 cookies per survivor bonus and an old booster will increase it by 100%, which is +4 cookies per survivor bonus. This means boosters will stay the exact same.

    I feel as if this is a great idea, but will increase cookie production further. Of course that's worth it if keeps players online, at this point anyway.
     
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  5. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    What I'll say is this.

    In regards to game development, Jackson and I have it covered. We're really freaking good at what we do, just look at some of our more recent work like MCLobbies, Mixed Arcade, or any of the recent MCI updates in regards to game design (not overall success which is driven by advertising).

    The issue with MCI is we had created it with limited knowledge of game design. We wanted to clone super-gaming's MCI and add enough cool stuff to it that it felt like it was something special and different. When we made those decisions, we didn't necessarily consider overall impact both short and long term, but instead thought more about what would be "cool" and exciting for players making the move from super-gaming to Project Mayhem at the time.

    The MCI economy isn't where we wanted it to be and it's always been a bit broken (which I think is really unfortunate). The MCI kit balance isn't what we'd like it to be but that's not just due to all the kits but rather due to the overly-complicated subsystems.

    If we were to make an MCI now, I have no doubt that it would be an incredible, awesome game. Unfortunately, redacting the work that we've done to MCI in its current state would not bode well for the server and its players. As much as we'd like to make huge design changes to MCI, the only way I could ever see this being feasible is by releasing an entirely new MCI.

    I appreciate all of your interest and care in improving MCI and the rest of our games. Game design is really fun and awesome and it's a field where there's a lot of "right" solutions to a particular problem in any given scenario. If you find any of it interesting, feel free to talk to me about game design on teamspeak or something. It's some cool stuff.

    maxben out.
     
  6. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member Wiki Team

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    I really am not trying to start anything by saying this because I know that you have a pretty good Idea of what you are doing, but i do want to get my opinion voiced:

    You mention MCLobbies, which I'll admit I haven't checked in on in a while but last time I checked MClobbies' upload function had been not working for a month at least, then after a while the actual website/dropbox ip had become an inactive website. Something that I have always noticed is that with so many projects going on at once, since you only have one programmer to do all of these jobs, even if neither of you would like to admit it, it's probably pretty overwhelming for him and that is why many projects can be left in the dust.

    I remember back when Mayhem Mania and Fear SG were supposed to be the "kick off" of the server to bigger heights and then they just got forgotten about, it took months to remove them from the lobby. There were clear problems with some games and clear things that actually work. This shows in some of your gamemodes.

    As addressed in Nick's interpretation of the first video of his thread he addressed the problem with Play-to-Win gamemodes. This issue is present in all of your failed gamemodes and i will explain why in detail so you don't think i am just throwing hate out:

    - Fear Survival Games: The game was extremely successful at the beginning, which is (if my memory is not wrong, sorry it's been a year, maybe longer) before you had added the kits to the game (not classes). To those who didn't play FearSG, There were classes and Kits for each start up, a class was something like Freeze that could hold an item to have an ice platform appear under them, so it was an ability. A kit on the other hand was something that the player would get after 1 minute into the game that was a collection of items that the player could use to their advantage. These kits could be upgraded and gave a ridiculous advantage to player who bought them, especially on smaller maps. Some examples: TANK X and Archer X because archer could bow spam any player if they got into water and tank could just take 80 hits before dying so they could barely die (they could literally end up with protection 1 iron helm, pants and boots, a protection 1 diamond chest and an enchanted diamond sword... Like okay balanced. From what I remember it wasn't until people started getting obscene amounts of fear that this game became unplayable, making it a clear version of a Play to win game...

    - Mayhem Mania: This one was a bit more subtle of its Play to win stuff because you could buy any kit from the roster once you got the mania points but I can assure you it was still there. The problem with this game was that some games were unwinnable if you didn't have a good kit, (that is unless everyone else had default as well) some examples: Joust: Archer was basically needed because of that extra crit damage before swinging started, Hack battles: God mode and force-field were basically requirements, Territory Trouble: Honestly Not broken because all kits had their strengths and weaknesses like rock paper scissors (will address this again later), One in the Quiver: Not too broken but still a noticeable advantage was given to those with a sword, Freeze Tag: Not too broken, advantage was for people with Timelord but at the same time that game never really was given the correct amount of attention to begin with. Castle Wars: noticeable advantage once Surge was purchased but still not too broken because it's a team gamemode. Guardian Ball: not too broken, spiker was pretty strong since you could stand on the net whenever a staff member wasn't playing but that's about it. Anyway, there are probably more games i'm forgetting but the truth of the matter is, there was a clear advantage to players with more playtime unless all players in the game were new (which was never the case because Lovmama and MutatedGrape never really left mayhem mania...

    - SnD: This was addressed after a bit and I'll admit it has been improved but the fact of the matter is that in a game where kits have such a huge effect on gameplay, there needs to be kits that can counter other kits and be countered by other kits. Like rock paper scissors, there is no advantage to any of the 3 choices Rock may beat scissors but rock is also beat by paper, paper may beat rock but is beat by scissors, scissors may beat paper but is beat by rock. There is a full balance to the gamemode. and once again this was addressed after a while but there was another issue with this game which brings back my first point of jackson maybe being overwhelmed with tasks. That issue was broken kits, not broken as in overpowered but broken as in glitched kits. For 2 examples: i thought there was a glitch with boomerang that it was doing too much damage, jack ENSURED me that the damage was being halved when it was supposed to, but without checking his code for logic errors. finally he checked and found out it was being DOUBLED rather than being halved... oops? Then again with Explosive, he ensured me that the bazooka damage was being shared if multiple targets were hit by the explosion without checking, until finally realizing that the code wasn't doing that at all so players could be killing GROUPS of people with the click of a button. so yes this game started off being play to win but eventually became lost due to lack of attention

    - McInfected: I will admit this isn't a "failed" gamemode but the only reason that it is still going is because it is just barely retaining a player count of 90% veterans and I apologize for saying this because it's quite harsh but it needs to be said: I personally think that if Mcinfected hadn't been a remake of the original, then it wouldn't have been popular in the first place just because it is such a play to win gamemode. How is it play to win you might ask? I will admit the game is not AS play to win as the other gamemodes... in theory. In a perfect world players would prestige and master prestige right after having enough cookies to do so but this is a player base that gives way too many shits about KDR and such that they commander camp for weeks, eventually there is an entire group of commanders and then when a new player logs in, all they do is get their ass kicked over and over and over. If everyone didn't camp commander then the number of commanders at a time would be spread out, players who want a KDR would be forced to pvp at ranks below 25 and then KDR might actually show skill and not how often you play infected rather than survivor. still logically this would still become an issue in the long run because of prestige perks....there are literally so many prestige perks that once someone has every single one, they are hard to kill even as a leather. Think of all these issues and I haven't even addressed the issues with how long it takes to level up infected kits and just how much of an effect they have on a game. This game is play to win, there is no doubt in my mind. if you still have doubts? Look at the goddamned leaderboard. Everyone is ranked by score, something that if you really want it to go up, all you can really do, it play, play, play.

    Now let's look at some of the non play to win gamemodes:

    - Agario: This one was actually successful as hell in my opinion. legitimately well designed. Yes there was an effect that you could have from leveling up in the game but that effect was not giving you some commanding lead in the game because the game is skill based, not playtime based. This game actually succeeded until it just stopped getting any attention at all. the only attention it got was when you guys actually realized that it was successful and had it's own playercount and were like "let's try to move these player to MCI" so you invented that incentive that gave people more mass for playing mcinfected. LIKE i'm sorry but in what world was that a good idea? You finally got one right and you threw it all away because you keep trying to give mci all of the attention when In my opinion it's an unfix-able gamemode. Agario failed because of 2 things, the main one: lack of advertising, as well as just a general decrease in game interest. This one you have no control over except that you could have maybe not chosen a craze to begin with. What I mean is that the human race has a short attention span, we all bandwagon on one thing for like a month then drop it like it meant nothing to us: Examples: agar.io, slither.io, fidget spinners, bottle flipping, dabbing... the list goes on. What i'm trying to say is that by choosing a craze rather than a passion, you doomed the gamemode to begin with.

    - Slither.io: Only issue I saw with this game is that it was not given as much attention as needed. respawn tokens were actually balanced in my opinion, but there were still many glitches plus it just stopped getting advertising after a while and stuff like that.


    I just want to repeat that I am not trying to attack either you or Jackson. I wanted you to know that there are some improvements that you might want to look into and I'm sorry if anything sounded aggressive. I also want to make it clear that yes I said that advertising is one of the downfalls, I'm not blaming this on you entirely. What i mean by this is that I know it's hard to get youtubers and stuff like that but at the same time I think that we had some videos for the wrong gamemodes at times.

    Thank you to anyone who read my entire book that I've written.

    - Soup out

    [​IMG]
     
  7. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    Not fixing the upload function isn't bad design. It's management of limited resources.

    We won't be needing the upload function until it has advertising because pretty much nobody knows about MCLobbies anyways. The fix for it isn't easy and we would prefer to focus on other things than waste a week's worth of time rebuilding that system.

    As for your other points, p2w (which really doesn't exist in any of our games) doesn't lead to dead gamemodes. Correlation isn't causation and that's the mistake that you are making there. Just because there are some things that give a slight advantage if bought doesn't mean it's p2w, that just means that not everything is cosmetic. P2w is only a problem if those that don't pay can feasibly compete with those that do. In all of our games that just isn't the case.
     
  8. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member Wiki Team

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    Did you actually read my post because I was talking about gamemodes that are PLAY to win not PAY to win. I didn't make a single point about anything pay to win in any of the gamemode so if you have time, please actually read my comment rather than just assume what I am saying.

    On the other hand I do see what you mean about fixing the upload function but at the same time I think that a common mistake that you have made in the past is looking into advertising before the product is finished. I understand it's necessary to get the word out but at the same time (and I know this is a HUGE "if") but what if some youtuber just happened to come across MCLobbies on his own and was like wow this is amazing, I think I'll share it with my channel anyway just for the hell of it... Then since your product isn't finished if he was to find an unfinished server he wouldn't want to share it.
     
  9. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    Sorry, yes, I did read your post. I saw what I thought was pay to win (albeit it just woke up) and read a bit further and was like okay, I got this, and wrote a response. Sorry, I made a mistake.

    To be completely clear, we always look into advertising both before the project is complete and after the project is complete. Your understanding of completeness for a project like MCLobbies is incorrect, because MCLobbies right now is a completed project. If we were to get advertising in place, then we would focus our attention towards the upload function, but it's not like not having an upload function is going to prevent us from getting advertising. We just would only prefer to spend time fixing things like that if we have a good reason to (and an advertising deal would be a good reason to).

    MCLobbies is a finished server. It would be nearly impossible for some YouTuber (large enough to have an impact) to find the server. The reason for this is because it really isn't advertised anywhere and there's no history of it. The server gets on average like 0.5 unique joins a day. For one of those joins to be a YouTuber with a significant viewerbase that then wants to make a video is incredibly unlikely. We'd prefer to focus our time on what we believe to be more important matters.

    As for the play-to-win thing, the very nature of a game like MCI requires that there is a progression that allows some players to be stronger than others. It wouldn't be a very fun game if all the humans had the same exact loadout and all of the infected had the same loadout too. The game is unbalanced (in the sense that humans > zombies in most cases), but that's why people enjoy it. Not having good gear requires a different playstyle than if you have better gear and items. This makes the game interesting and fun and since humans and infected fight each other, the play-to-win unlocks aren't being compared from human to human or zombie to zombie but rather human to zombie, which as I noted is supposed to be uneven as that's the nature of the game.

    For games like Mixed Arcade, it's really not play-to-win. Search and Destroy I'd argue isn't play-to-win either. It's a team game and in most cases you can still do well just by having a team that is good (not necessarily by having a good kit). Most of the kits in S&D are pretty well balanced anyways and the individual class upgrade benefits aren't very strong or unfair.

    When it comes to FearSG, that was a project that we had worked on when we were inexperienced. We wanted to make a really cool and fun survival games server and weren't exactly sure how to do this effectively. While we did study what worked and what didn't, we didn't focus too much on how the game would progress and balance over time. This is something we consider far more heavily when making games now and it's one of the biggest things we've learned from FearSG.
     
  10. Soup

    Soup Well-Known Member Wiki Team

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    Thank you for taking the time to re-read it, no worries about the mistake, it's a common thing to rebuttal as soon as you have an argument.

    As for your response your points to make sense. Referring to SnD i agree that you have made it a more balanced gamemode than some of the other ones. As for Mixed arcade I haven't played it quite as much as others as school and work have been overwhelming so I think you may have misunderstood what I was referring to. I was actually trying to talk about Mayhem Mania, the gamemode that unfortunately failed but was being remade into Mixed arcade. I understand that I am bringing up a lot of points from the past such as Fear SG but that's because I'm not trying to argue as much as point out room to learn from mistakes. I think that you and Jackson have definitely improved your game when it comes to making games and that's why I made sure you knew this was not an attack against you. my full intentions are just to point out where you went wrong in some cases and to point out cases where it went very well.

    I haven't investigated much into the new gamemode of Mixed Arcade but I look forward to it.
     
  11. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    Yeah, I decided to talk about mixed arcade and not mayhem mania because mixed arcade is basically us taking what we learned since making mayhem mania which is why it's such a good game now. Anyways I appreciate you pointing out all that stuff, though we also understand that learning from our mistakes is the best way for us to improve :)
     
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  12. Nick

    Nick Well-Known Member

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    I do find coding quite interesting. Not that I've ever tried it before, tho
     
  13. Rockin

    Rockin Well-Known Member

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    Like everything, it takes practice, and practice takes hours and hours and hours of boredom.
     
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  14. Agent40

    Agent40 Well-Known Member YouTube

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    and when you finally finish coding a Project you find out that the bug you've been stuck on for days upon end is due do a single } is missing.
     
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  15. Dat_Skeleton

    Dat_Skeleton Well-Known Member

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    Not if you use Eclipse, it immediately tells you :p
     

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