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Tanking - The Main Attraction & Detrimental Flaw

Discussion in 'MCInfected 2.0 Discussion' started by Snizz, Jan 6, 2018.

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Should Armor Be Looked Into? (IN GENERAL)

  1. Yes

  2. No

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  1. Snizz

    Snizz Member

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    Disclaimer: I'm not in the "loop" of the current MCI meta. This opinion has been passed around for ages and is always under scrutiny by two parties which I'll go over if possible. I advise you read the whole thing before commenting as I hope to go over every part of this game design "concept" as possible.

    Further Note: This is more of a discussion topic than a straight suggestion, please do comment!


    Introduction
    MCI is a unique gamemode to state at the very least. Designed with progression based achievements and allowing players to really feel a sense of accomplishment with every round won.

    Whether it be challenging themselves to make a new killstreak record, maintain a high KDR or in general play to advance ranks, the game lacks no sense of feeling accomplished when reaching said goal.

    But, the problem that I've always had with this game, from 2014 or even further back in 2012, has been that this game has locked new players out of play styles that should be possible at any stage within the game.

    I'm talking about armor distribution. The concept that builds up MCI is the concept of fighting for your life. The game is designed to reward aggressive players and support the idea to go big or go home. While you may camp the game out, it's not rewarding nor is it fun. If I wanted to play hide and go seek, I'd play hide and go seek, NOT MCI.

    But as much as this game is designed around fighting, it's also based around tanking. Soaking up damage and dealing more than you take is the only way to survive with an aggressive playstyle. But with the current armor and weapon loadouts a new player has to put in more than twice the effort, statistically, in avoiding damage.

    The game doesn't "hard" lock players out of tanking early game, but it is so significantly harder for a new player to get a chance at having a 4 kill streak, much less a 25 kill streak, that new players continue to hide or surround themselves with Commanders to stay alive.

    So, with that introduction, the purpose of this "essay" will be to convince you that our current rank progression is not just flawed, but a major problem to retaining new players.

    How Much is Damage Reduction Worth?
    Throughout the ranks a player will only ever be able to achieve 5 different types of damage reduction and 2 different types of swords or attack damage.

    To lay them out for further use and to shorthand it I'll be referring to the following damage reduction combinations as follows.

    Armor

    • Full Leather or 0/4 = 28% DR
    • Full Leather with Iron Boots or 1/4 = 32% DR
    • Leather Chestplate and Leggings with Iron Helmet and Boots or 2/4 = 36% DR
    • Full Iron with Leather Chestplate or 3/4 = 48% DR
    • Full Iron or 4/4 = 60% DR
    Now Armor progression has 25 Ranks to change 4 times. I did note there are 5 different loadouts, but since we have a base loadout of 0/4 we can only change 4 times over 25 ranks. This means, on average we should expect a change every 6-7 levels.

    But, since the costs of ranks increase the higher rank you are this measurement doesn't work.
    It takes a total of 43,800 cookies (w/o FS) to get from rank 1 - 25.

    This means on average that we'd see armor change every ~11k cookies.
    Keep in mind that this also isn't a fair calculation as two of our armor upgrades are equal to 12% damage reduction increases compared to the 4% increases we get from helmets and boots.

    If weighted properly in accordance to the difference of the upgrades. Each 4% increase should cost 5475 cookies.
    This means Chestplate and Leggings should appear after ~32k is spent or every ~16k we could expect a total of 12% increase on damage reduction.

    That's where we run into the issue. It's not a problem of how the armor is assigned. Because according to the calculations they are more than fair. We receive the first upgrade for a total cost of 2850 cookies and as a game design concept this makes sense. You give upgrades for cheaper at the start since it's harder to make the cookies as fast since a rank 1 is unable to perform at the level of a rank 25.

    The problem is that there isn't enough damage reduction to warrant these huge gaps in progression.

    Reasoning
    Instead of just saying "buff" newbies let's think this out. If the end goal is to be strong enough to tank as an Iron do you think having less than half of their armor is fair or gives them a taste of what it'll be like in 4/4? This means a player takes more than twice the amount of damage a rank 25 will along with the added "benefit" of no food, no bow, no grenades, no perks, etc. They have nothing to start out with. it's not a matter of giving them more healing at the beginning either.

    It's a matter of not being able to play aggressively and then even so, you're not rewarded enough for the effort put in.

    You do not get to make mistakes as a 0/4.
    You do not get second chances.
    You either hide, die, or die fighting.

    You may be thinking to yourself, "Hey, That's a blanket statement! I've made it through games while fighting as a 0/4!"

    But to that I have to say, did it require more or less effort?
    Did it require you to do things that you normally wouldn't at rank 25?
    Did it prevent you from getting a satisfying and fulfilling game?

    Because I will always pick 4/4 over 0/4 for a good gameplay experience.

    Think of it this way, if MCI was a TV show and you were always told that it gets better the longer you watch, while true, do you feel the reward at the end is worth the pain of no story or plot?

    Because right now I can tell you that if I didn't fully understand what 4/4 felt like I wouldn't be playing.

    The key point is that the reward is held so high up on a shelf, that even though it's fun when you get it, it's not fun to put yourself in such a boring playstyle to get there efficiently and quickly.

    Note: This section is the initial idea(s), the full proposal is coming!

    Proposals

    Possibilities
    There are multiple ways to do this, we could mess with Protection enchants, we could involve multiple armor tiers, or even a combination of both. But those take a lot of time to think out and make "balanced."

    I assume most of us agree when we say Full Iron (4/4) at rank 25 is as about as close to balanced or "fair" as we'll get. But we need to decide the lower boundary of armor. Should it honestly stay static at 28% or should it perhaps start higher?

    Skeleton or Initial Proposal
    I propose, if this were to be done ASAP, that we just make Full Leather at base into Full Chain at base.

    Leather < Chain
    28% DR < 48% DR

    This works almost flawlessly except for the helmet. The helmet would be a vanity change only from Chain to Iron.

    Chain and Iron Helmet are both equal to 8% DR.

    But the rest are such lovely numbers to work with!
    Chain to Iron Chestplate is 4%
    Chain to Iron Leggings is 4%
    Chain to Iron Boots is 4%

    The Full Proposal

    Take the Skeleton Proposal and also implement the idea of buffing Commander. Commander would instead get a Diamond helmet while at a lower level the Iron Sword is introduced. This gives a small buff to Survivors by 4% for a total endgame DR of 64%.

    I understand that survivors do not need more buffs, but in the big picture if you buff the lower levels you'll have to buff infected to an extent.

    Overall this gives Infected a much more visible marker to as who is maxed and further making progression fluid.

    Every DR upgrade would be equal to 4% instead of having 12% total DR in upgrades you now have 16% and a nice shiny "crown" to prove you've made it far.

    Personal Proposal

    I want to state first that this on itself could be an entirely new thread so again I'm sorry for the length.

    There will be a photo of the changes with more detailed information below.

    We've made progress already. Acknowledging the problem is a major accomplishment already. Honestly having to deal with other servers before, the fact you are all so supportive of anything that might help is refreshing.

    Enough of the theatrics we're here to make changes.

    Expectations:
    • Knowledge of Base Armor (Not Protection or EPF)
    • Knowledge of Critical Damage Formula
    • Elementary Level Math
    • Experience Playing the Damn Game
    With those out of the way let's begin.

    Current Starting Armor
    Opinion
    The initial damage reduction you gain from the start or better known as "Leather" is too low. You start out with less than half of your max potential. A flat 28% Damage Reduction or in other words, you take 72% of all incoming damage.

    Reasoning & Information
    That, in case you want to argue, means you'll drop in less than 4 Stone Sword crits or 5 Wood Sword crits.

    A base zombie is ~70% tankier than your beginning survivor. This is not okay. The reason why is because the progression in which you gain armor is spread way too far apart and even if brought closer together, the order you gain them is not enough to open up tanking as a strategy.

    This in mind, I've decided to keep with the 4 separate upgrades system regarding armor.

    Initial Thoughts
    We already know 60% or Full Iron is strong enough for endgame we'll simply just redistribute how the DR% across the board is given. If we change the Vanilla values, as long as we end up with 60% we'll be fine. The only thing I want to change is how fast you gain armor and damage.

    For 25 ranks we spread the major upgrades way too thin. 4% DR at level 7? A bow at level 12? It's a good system cost wise, but the upgrades are not equal in worth and this shows because we continue to feel too underpowered and too underwhelmed at the start.

    Proposed Starting Armor
    We'll buff starting armor from 28% DR to 40% DR. Everything vanity about the armor is up to the community.

    Reasoning
    Now instead of starting with less than half of your max potential you start with two-thirds of said potential.
    Now instead of taking 72% you will be taking 60% meaning you are taking 20% less damage overall. Which also means that instead of dropping to a basic Zombie in 5 criticals you'll now drop after 6 criticals compared to the 9 criticals it'll take when you're fully maxed.

    It may seem small but keep in mind a critical hit has requirements to land and an additional hit taken is another hit that you can stay alive for!

    If we were to do normal hits tanked:
    • A Zombie will drop a (Current) Survivor in ~7 hits
    • A Zombie will drop a (New) Survivor in ~9 hits
    • A Zombie will drop a (Current Maxed) Survivor in ~13 hits.
    Tankiness may seem like it barely increased, but in reality these are still just numbers. They're not applied to actual fights.

    Current Starting Weapon
    Opinion
    In the current game you begin with a Stone Sword, which since you are so defenseless, this is one aspect I will not argue against. At least you have a decent weapon from the start.

    Proposed Starting Weapon
    Proposal
    We'll shift the starting weapon down to a wood sword until level 10.

    Reasoning
    If you expect a ~40% buff in armor and to take 20% less damage as a starter without any changes to how progression works in the offensive department, you're mistaken.

    I still believe that even with the new buff in armor a reduction of a stone sword until level 10 is practical.
    The new weapon still shows you're new, you can still do work, but you need teamwork to actually survive.

    Surviving as a newbie on your own, should be possible but not probable.

    Please look over the "Raw Proposal" to see all changes I hope to have considered if not implemented.

    ALSO!
    Please try to separate the math shown here from actual gameplay experiences as applying these numbers will match tooth for tooth, but not in an actual fight. Fights change depending on who is playing and how well they play, these numbers are statistical but not concrete in application.


    [​IMG]
    • Starting Armor changed from 28% DR to 40% DR
    • End game Damage Reduction remains the same
    • Starting Weapon is changed from Stone Sword to Wood Sword
    • Armor Upgrades are 5%/2.5%/5%/7.5% in that order
    • Armor Upgrades occur every 5 levels up until 20 (5/10/15/20)
    • Weapon Upgrades are Stone Sword & Iron Sword
    • Weapon Upgrades occur at 10 and 25

    FAQ

    Q: Why buff the lower levels instead of nerfing the Infected?
    A: We already know that Infected are having trouble with 4/4s, we should already know that Infected need a buff to match 4/4s but the 0/4s are so absolutely destroyed by Infected already.

    Q: Why close the gap that much?
    A: While earning more than double the DR is a great feeling when you've finally climbed to the top, it doesn't allow players to experience the true game. I'm so tired of seeing these poor little leathers get chewed apart since they think they can compete with the big dogs. It's not smart to lock playstyles behind monetary progression goals.

    The above is a big reason Infected requirements make much more sense for progression based game than the Survivors progression at this point in time.


    Q: Why Chain though?
    A: It gives the best numbers to have a steady increase of DR. With the full proposal a static 4% DR increase occurs whenever a new piece comes into play. DR is heavily sought no matter where it's on your body.


    Q: Why now?
    A: Because most of my friends quit because they can't play together. This is due to the rank differences and different playstyles that are opened up to the ones who spent more time playing.

    Q: But Leather is a staple of MCI! We can't change that!
    A: Get over yourself, Leathers are not a staple of MCI. Full Iron with an Iron Sword is the closest to a staple we have. Get your head straight, do you really say that for the "staple" or do you say it because they'll continue to be easy kills for you?
    A2: Keeping the vanity of leather is more than possible, but armor itself will be buffed!

    It will only buff the lower levels as I would prefer not to buff Commanders anymore.

    A:
    Protection is finicky with its design but I'll give you raw numbers without explaining the math behind it as it's available on the internet.

    With Juggernaut currently the 5 armor loadouts will be:
    • 0/4 with Prot II is ~32.32% DR or 4.32% Extra
    • 1/4 with Prot II is ~36.08% DR or 4.08% Extra
    • 2/4 with Prot II is ~39.84% DR or 3.84% Extra
    • 3/4 with Prot II is ~51.12% DR or 3.12% Extra
    • 4/4 with Prot II is ~62.40% DR or 2.40% Extra
    With Juggernaut the Proposed Survivor loadouts will be:
    • 0/4 with Prot II is ~43.60% DR or 3.60% Extra
    • 1/4 with Prot II is ~48.30% DR or 3.30% Extra
    • 2/4 with Prot II is ~50.65% DR or 3.15% Extra
    • 3/4 with Prot II is ~55.35 or 2.85% Extra
    • 4/4 with Prot II is ~62.40% DR or 2.40% Extra

    Closing
    Hopefully this will be a short portion. I'm sorry this looks so essay like, but honestly this mechanic has bugged me all the way back then to the present. Too many people were focused on pre-EULA and making money that this opinion kept getting lost in the swarms of EULA changes, P2W changes, or even 1.9 PVP.

    In addition, there were too many "vanilla" die hards that armor changes were not an option to vocally put out there. But it seems the majority of the server understands that we aren't retaining players.

    This is just one of the biggest flaws I can see. You can't expect to keep players who aren't having fun.

    Think it out though, do you honestly expect this game to gain new players and in addition keep them when we already treat them like dirt?

    Changes & Notes
    Edit 1 (1/7/16): Grammar and Spelling Fixes
    Edit 2 (1/7/16): Added Personal Proposal
    Edit 3 (1/9/16): Added Information on how Juggernaut will work with this proposal


    Also keep in mind this is an indirect buff to Final Stand.

    Anything not colored black is to be seen as no longer relevant to the entire thread. I'll leave it in for documentation as I think we're on the verge of a game changer.



    To Do
    Add information where not clear

    Sources
    http://wiki.pm-mc.com/Ranks
    https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Armor
    https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Armor/Before_1.9
    https://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Chunk_format#Entity_format
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  2. Nick

    Nick Well-Known Member

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    YES YES YES YES YES YES YES

    I'VE BEEN TRYING TO SAY THIS FOR YEARS

    However full chain is a bit op, I think we should replace it with gold armor (44% DR)

    Since iron leggings in that case would be better than an iron chestplate, we would swap the ranks needed to unlock them

    Rank 19 = Iron chestplate (+4% DR)

    Rank 24 = Iron Leggings (+8% DR)
     
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  3. Snizz

    Snizz Member

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    That still leaves the issue of the helmet.

    Also 4% difference from Chain isn't the margin that pushes it into the "OP" zone by my books. But of course if more people agree that Gold would be a better introduction than Chain, then so be it.
     
  4. lordslaughter20

    lordslaughter20 Well-Known Member

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    Why not just transition from leather -> chain -> iron. Because base chain would be a bit strong and buffing commanders definitely ain't necessary (talking about giving commanders a diamond helmet). However, referring to your analogy of if mci was a TV show I'd see it as normal everyday civilians whose lives were turned upside-down and have to try to scrap together resources trying to survive. So basically starting from nothing and slowly strengthening their arsenal is how I see going from leather -> chain -> iron, but if you just started from chain and just go to iron I'd just see it as civilians who were preparing for this event and that wouldn't be as interesting to me.
     
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  5. CloudsPvP

    CloudsPvP Active Member

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    Leather - Chain - Iron yep.
     
  6. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    I like the effort you put into this. We'll consider doing something like this. As a thought experiment, I'd recommend you try to adjust your proposal with the understanding that we can actually programmatically change damage reduction values regardless of armor worn. Similarly, we can change how much damage any given weapon deals.
     
  7. Snizz

    Snizz Member

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    Awesome, I sometimes forget how versatile Minecraft is. I'll play around with the numbers we currently have and use the base Zombie infected class to compete against said numbers.

    I do feel the need to ask how Turkey Cannon and other abilities like it work. Are they a true X damage applied? Or are they affected by armor reduction?

    Either way, I'm super excited to hear you'll even consider this. It's a gameplay mechanic that always made me question prestige.

    I believe the game needs to be fun while you're playing it, not just at certain parts.
     
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  8. Who am I

    Who am I Member

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    Just bring back the og jugg
    The chain chest plate with protection
     
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  9. Furiosus_

    Furiosus_ Well-Known Member

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    I respect your dedication towards this project you started. I hope you also think about Z_power affecting Iron armor.
     
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  10. Snizz

    Snizz Member

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    This is actually some essential information that I didn't think about.

    Do you know exactly how it works?

    Like is it a flat 0.25/0.5/0.75/1 damage added to your sword that is then affected by damage formulas? (Criticals, Strength, etc.)
    Or is it applied after damage is calculated for a simple bonus up to an extra half heart?

    Then keeping that in mind is it affected by armor or is dealt as true damage?

    @maxben34 Sorry to tag you, but from my limited knowledge I'd expect you to have full answers on this topic.
     
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  11. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    Good questions. I actually don't know the answer anymore. We worked on this roughly 3 years ago so I can't recall how it's done. I'll tag @jackson30007 because he should be able to explain how this stuff works.
     
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  12. kenzanatior9000

    kenzanatior9000 Active Member

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    z power is 0.25 extra damage per piece of iron armor so chain could be 0.125 let's say you have full chain armor. It would add up to 0.50 extra damage. And iron helmet with the rest chain armor it would ben0.625 2 chain armor pieces and 2 iron armor pieces would be 0.75 and so on for z power

    That's how I would do it
     
  13. jackson30007

    jackson30007 Owner Owner Developer

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    zPower damage is not effected by strength or critical hits but it is effected by armor and resistance.
     
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  14. Snizz

    Snizz Member

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    So it's applied at the end of the damage formula but before the armor reduction takes place?

    I believe this is correct from what you're saying, just want to make sure.

    This is an interesting idea on it's own, but I was asking for how it works currently. Thank you for taking the time though!

    Also with maxben's recommendation I provided a new full proposal so be sure to read it!
     
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  15. Nick

    Nick Well-Known Member

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    Mm yes we could as "tier" armor ranks or mess with protection values. Good idea ben, I didn't actually know you could do this.

    I believe the problem with starting out players with leather as a first rank is that they get 4 shot by some infected, and 1v1'ing as a rank 1 prestige 0 is actually a risky idea. I think having all chain except leather helmet might be the way to go (because giving commanders diamond helmets is not a great idea)
     
  16. Rockin

    Rockin Well-Known Member

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    Super interesting and creative writing. Actually had fun reading this. I never even considered re adjusting the human ranks. This is rad!
     
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  17. CloudsPvP

    CloudsPvP Active Member

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    I guess so.
    Yeah it's fun reading this.
     
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  18. MineButcher

    MineButcher Well-Known Member

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    I'll try to keep this short, and fail.

    Awesome essay structure, well detailed arguments, relevant evidence. 9.2/10 from me. :)

    This has indeed been a problem since day one. I'm really happy someone is working actively to improve game-play for newer players, which is the backbone that the server needs to truly flourish and become mainstream.

    Here are just some of my opinions, I hope they will help.

    1. Would not recommend giving newer players gold armor. gold is really easy to see in most maps and leathers(well now goldies) will become more targeted than ever.

    2. Not really an armor expert myself, so just throwing things around. I believe chain armor is a little too strong for a newer player, but couldn't there be like a mix of chain and leather? Maybe like chain boots, chain chestplate, and the rest leather and they move up from there? Just an idea.

    3. With a change in armor/weapons for newer players, would the food system need to change?

    4. I also noticed you realized the indirect buff to final stand. If the armor system is changed, I don't agree with final stand receiving armor upgrades. Final stand/final stand pro are annoying enough as it is without more buffs. Oh and I have final stand pro and I know just how OP it is.


    That is it for now. If I think of anything else I'll either edit this or post a new comment. I'm excited for the future of Project Mayhem and would definitely play if there was a major update like the one proposed.

    @Snizz keep up the good work!

    Note: if people start calling them goldies because gold armor was implemented I would like to note I came up with that! 0.05$ charge for anyone that uses it :p

    Edit: can't change my vote, I didn't read it before voting and now I can't :(
     
  19. CloudsPvP

    CloudsPvP Active Member

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    I agree with number 2, Also 3 i'm not sure about that, like what would it be changed to? It's perfect right now?
     
  20. Snizz

    Snizz Member

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    As noted in the Personal Proposal, everything vanity about armor is up to the community. Since maxben has made it clear armor values can be altered, this also means that the armor could remain leather, but much tankier in reality!

    As mentioned above maxben has commented that armor values can be changed meaning that vanity wise it could be anything as well!

    Personally I do not think so. I do believe that weapon scaling may need a change and overall this will bring a new wave of frustration for Infected who are already in need of a buff (IMO) but buffing the Infected currently would make it even worse for new players. That is why I'm proposing an armor overhaul for survivors and then if this gets implemented in someway I'll begin doing more work on Infected buffs.

    Personally I think final stand deserves the buff it's really just a way to extend the inevitable, but I'm no expert.
     
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