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[TIMF] The True Value of Donor Perks + A Necessary Nerf

Discussion in 'Ideas and Suggestions' started by chessgeek10, Jan 19, 2016.

  1. chessgeek10

    chessgeek10 Well-Known Member

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    Please read the entirety of both sections before commenting.

    I've been playing the new gamemode for a few days now, and most of my previous fears about the game's mechanics have been proven false.
    However, there is one thing that really makes me want to leave. The game is quite literally, pay to win. Non-donors can not compete with any aspect of the game. I know many of you disagree, so I will be sure to prove you false. No, this is not a rage thread; I actually have not engaged in pvp at all yet. All my information comes from the server shop and right clicking the kits ingame.

    For the purpose of proving what's known as "pay to win", I'll be using the most expensive rank, since it has the most powerful perks and also seems to be the most popular rank ingame. I also have to apologize that I did not follow the format suggested, but it would be much too large anyway.

    To start off, lets look at the kits themselves, and a whole lot of math. To save time, I'll be using the format (days).hours.minutes.seconds to describe time values. Base 60 math is not easy, so don't be too surprised if you see a small mistake. I'm also using prices directly from the shop.
    Each of the 3 timelord kits contain a variety of items, and currently can be reused every 3 days.

    Helmet: 1.56.45 (base) + 9.26.56 (lapis) + 2 (enchanting fees) = 13.22.41
    Note: To calculate the price a non-donor must pay to recieve the same set of items, I'm assuming it takes at least two attempts of enchanting armor and weapons to get the maxed enchants, since less than 50% of the time will you receive protection IV rather than other forms of protection.
    Chestplate: 3.7 (base) + 9.25.56 (lapis) + 2 (enchanting fees) = 14.32.56
    Leggings: 2.43.40 (base) + 9.25.56 (lapis) + 2 (enchanting fees) = 14.9.36
    Boots: 1.33.30 (base) + 9.25.56 (lapis) + 2 (enchanting fees) = 12.59.26
    God Apples: 16 (count) x 1h = 16.00.00
    Note: Since these have no actual value in the shop, I gave them a generously low value of 1 hour each, even though they are worth far more.

    TNT (x64): 3.52.00
    Obsidian (x64): 0.41
    Lava Buckets: 6 (count) x 30m = 3.00.00
    Flint and Steel (ignoring enchantment): 0.8.36

    Pickaxe: 1.10.00 (base) + 4.42.58 (lapis) + 1 (enchanting fee) = 6.52.58
    Note: Although getting max enchants on these tools on the first try are still extremely rare, I lowered the attempts to only one for these tools, since they are a bit easier than armor to max correctly.
    Shovel: 0.24 (base) + 4.42.58 (lapis) + 1 (enchant fee) = 6.6.58
    Axe: 1.10 (base) + 4.42.58 (lapis) + 1 (enchant fee) = 6.52.58
    Steak/Pork (x64): 1.8.48

    Added together, the total value of all the timelord equipment is 4.16.00.17.
    This means that a regular player would theoretically have to spend at least 4 days, 16 hours, and 17 seconds to gain the materials given to a timelord every 3 days.

    For those who do have these kits to begin with, imagine how much different your game experience would be if you didn't have any of that at all. Do you see it yet?

    Besides a few missing smaller enchants in a couple pieces of equipment, these players are receiving max gear. Maximum gear: also known as a god set. Remember, there's a reason why people call it a god set.
    Yes, it is theoretically possible for a regular player to earn gear this good. But to do it would take days of real time, or that giant number of ingame currency you see above. You say it's not too hard to obtain, but it takes tons of mining for lapis and diamonds, and a ton of luck to get the right enchants. And even after a non-donor achieves this set of god gear, there is no way to become more powerful materially than the timelords, since the gear is already at it's maximum potential. The beta has been open for 3 days already, and I guarantee no player has created this gear legit. Things like that can't be considered reasonable for a non-donor to do just to simply equal the material status of a paying player. We shouldn't have to go to this length for equality. That, my friend, is
    "But Chess!" you say. "Winning in factions is more than just having good gear!"
    And right you are, expected counterargument. Although god gear can give you an extreme early game advantage, there's more too factions than that. But you see, paying players also have other advantages, too. They also get immediate boosts to their currency and 5 crate keys. More importantly, they have features and multipliers that non-donors can never obtain.
    More specifically, these are:
    • /anvil
    • /repair
    • other commands
    • Extra homes
    • 2x faction xp
    • 1.3x more time per kill
    The biggest issue here is the 200% faction xp. Those who say gear isn't the key to winning would likely agree power is key. Power meaning obtaining the most powerful faction on the server. Right here you see that timelords have a direct boost to that power. Now, not only do non-donors have to work hard to earn the 4.66 days worth of gear, work hard to get to homes, use anvils, and repair the normal way, but now they also have to work twice as hard to make their faction just as powerful as a donor. The very definition of the word "overpowered" is "possessing too much power". And with 2x the earn rate of power, they are undeniably overpowered. They literally pay, to win.

    Because of these perks given to timelords, the TIMF community is split two ways:
    1. The donors, starting with all the gear they'll need, have no need to mine, and can easily go directly for kills and raiding. Any death is no big deal, since their kits will reset in 3 days.
    2. The non-donors, starting with practically nothing, must first mine for days before they can risk going to the surface, where they're likely to lose all their hard work and be forced to start over completely.
    We are at a disadvantage, we are the free kills for the instantly strong. Few factions that do have these perks will accept us. We are the victims of the donor's massive power.

    We are the prey.
     
  2. chessgeek10

    chessgeek10 Well-Known Member

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    (Part II due to post limit)

    Of course, I refuse to leave this thread without leaving an actual suggestion. If, for some reason all that proof and evidence doesn't convince you that donation perks are pay to win, perhaps you would still be understanding of my suggestion of completely redone perks. I haven't put too much thought into this section, but these seem to be decent rough estimates to maintain interest in donating, while also not overpowering the rest of the players.

    VIP:
    • Remove time killing and faction xp multipliers (everything else is fine)
    • Kit: Full iron, 16 raw steak, iron pickaxe, 16 logs
    MVP:
    • Remove time killing and faction xp multipliers (everything else is fine)
    • Kit: Full Iron, 32 raw steak, all 4 iron tools, 16 logs, 8 tnt, lava bucket
    ELITE:
    • Remove time killing and faction xp multipliers (everything else is fine)
    • Kit: Full iron Protection I, 32 cooked steak, all 4 iron tools with efficiency/sharpness I, 32 logs, 16 tnt, 1 lava bucket
    TIME WIZARD:
    • Remove time killing and faction xp multipliers (everything else is fine)
    • Kit: Full Diamond armor, 48 cooked steak, all 4 iron tools with efficiency/sharpness II, 48 logs, 24 tnt, 2 lava buckets
    TIME LORD:
    • Remove time killing and faction xp multipliers (everything else is fine)
    • Kit: Full diamond armor Protection I, 64 cooked steak, all 4 diamond tools, 64 logs, 32 tnt, 2 lava buckets

    • All donor commands can be purchased by anyone ingame with extremely large sums of time, faction xp, or some other difficult task to unlock. It could also be an awesome way to create challenges for factions similar to challenges to unlock kits in MCI. This includes /workbench, /repair, /tpahere, /feed, /fly in spawn, /enchanttable, /anvil, extra /home s, and ability to mine spawners with silk touch.
    • Extend donor kit recharge times slightly (5d? 1week?)
    Since donors still have access to exclusive features such as keys, an immediate time boost, immediate commands and extra homes, colored chat, less time per deathban, and plenty of other features, they would still easily have a reason to donate. I know it is a large nerf to the kits, but currently it is pay to win.

    The pros of this change are much larger than the cons.
    Pros:
    • Stand out from those regular pay-for-everything faction servers
    • Regular players have a chance to be as successful as the donors.
    • Player retention will increase.
    • Success in the new gamemode will increase due to player retention.
    • More long term donations due to gamemode success.
    • etc.
    Cons:
    • Short term donation loss
    • Riots and disputes by current donors
    The best part is, even a large nerf is valid by simply saying the game is only beta currently. ;)
    Please consider my input and suggestions. I'd also appreciate if you didn't take this personally. It's all for the good of the game.

    Thank you for reading,
    -chessgeek10
     
  3. Ant0802

    Ant0802 New Member

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    I completely 100% AGREE...

    Accept... The timelord kit I think should be like prot 3 because it is so expensive. Everything else is fine!
     
  4. Kevin

    Kevin Well-Known Member

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    I already have 3 sets that are stronger than Time Lord, it's pretty easy to get a better gear than Timelord
     
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  5. chessgeek10

    chessgeek10 Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, there isn't really anything stronger than timelord kit. Sure, there's things like Depth Strider and Respiration, but they don't really make that much of a difference. Time Lord kit is already just about maxed.
    Secondly, according to your faction, you already have a rank. It's a lot easier to earn more op gear when you already start out overpowered.
    Lastly, you belong to one of the most, if not the most, powerful faction currently on the server due to your previous reputation and connections. New players just joining the server don't have access to the tools, equipment, gear, and protection offered by a powerful faction. Can you see how they are at an extreme disadvantage?

    If somehow you do have 3 sets "stronger than time lord", it isn't because you spent a long time enchanting them and earning them through normal means, it's likely because you were handed them by other faction members with the time lord rank. If it's easy for you, it's still much harder for others.
     
  6. Kevin

    Kevin Well-Known Member

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    Nop, I enchanted em my self. I just bought my faction rank today. And I got someones timelord kit because I killed em. And it had some very good enchants, but it only had protection 4. And you can get protection 5. I have prot 5 almost on my set, and I used hours to get it. But I got it after awhile.

    But I do agree to this, timelord is still way too op for the new players. Something should be changed here ye
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2016
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  7. Rod337

    Rod337 Well-Known Member

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    Wow this is very lengthy, I agree that /repair, /enchant, /craftingtable /anvil and all that good stuff should be unlockable,

    But you should also make it possible for non doners to unlock atleast 3 more homes, its hard to do anything with the 1 home i have...
     
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  8. MutatedGrape

    MutatedGrape Well-Known Member

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    http://www.minecraftenchantmentcalculator.com/rev6/

    Getting Unbreaking 3 with a level 30 enchantment is a 1 out of 3 chance, getting Protection 3 is a 1 out of 6 chance, getting Protection 4 is a 1 out of 8 chance. Getting a 2nd-4th Enchantment is a 60% chance, so even if you get Unbreaking 3 first enchant, the other enchantments are there to save you.
    I have no idea what plug-ins they made, but in vanilla Minecraft, it's impossible to get Protection 5.

    Oh yeah, it's also impossible to get Thorns 3 on an enchantment table, you'll have to use an anvil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2016
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  9. IronPastor7

    IronPastor7 Active Member YouTube

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    I want to say that this is a very well-made post Chess using data as your primary argument and addressing all counter-arguments. I have to agree with your suggestions to the kit nerfs but (I don't know if you mentioned this) allow non-donors to allow get spawners using a silk-touch pick. I think that restriction is needless. Its almost like saying, you can't get above Prestige 5 without getting Spaz in MCI. Hardcore players should not be restricted whether they are a donor or not.
     
  10. chessgeek10

    chessgeek10 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, and yes, I mentioned that somewhere in there. :)
     
  11. Nitromaniac

    Nitromaniac Well-Known Member Builder

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    This is why the two most powerful factions, Amigos and Mayhem, are powerful. Almost everyone in both factions has a rank, not to mention most are made up of the vast majority of mods that spend their whole day on factions rather than being a mod.
     
  12. Rod337

    Rod337 Well-Known Member

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    Amigos is not powerful because we have lots of donors we are powerful because we are smarter than everyone else and are actually farming hours successfully...
    (or atleast we where until we got raided, but we will fix our farms soon...)
     
  13. 6meme

    6meme Member

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    What does the;
    Last edited by moderator under Kevin's comment mean?
     
  14. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    We have reasons for our decisions to give each rank the kit items it has. If you would like me to discuss the specific reasoning, I can do so in private. Just poke me on teamspeak and then you can relay the information that I say here if you'd like.
     
  15. PapaSkid

    PapaSkid Well-Known Member

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    Tl:Dr please
     
  16. Nitromaniac

    Nitromaniac Well-Known Member Builder

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    What farms are they
     
  17. chessgeek10

    chessgeek10 Well-Known Member

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    @maxben34, your response makes absolutely no sense. I can't think of any good reason why you would say this.

    At first I assumed you were busy, and weren't interested in explaining your reasoning at the time.
    However, you've never had any trouble explaining opinions about TIMV in the past and the community has made it clear in multiple threads that this is a large issue.

    I also thought that maybe you think you've already explained why and don't want to repeat yourself. That can't be the reason either.
    Before writing this thread I looked through all of your messages on this topic, and made sure to keep counterarguments for all of them. It's all there in the original post; that's what this whole thread is about. I can go through each and every one of them for you if you need me to.

    It's starting to seem like the real reason you didn't formally respond to my suggestion is that you're hiding something.
    Why else would you say
    and not even mention any reasoning for it at all? That entire sentence is just suspicious. You're not even denying the fact that I proved that the game is currently pay to win. What reasons? Why?
    Is there some reason why you can't tell us?

    This thread has been open for only 4 hours or so, and there's already been so much support for this idea, including support from 2 of your own moderators. If more of them knew about this thread, I assure you the majority would agree as well. There hasn't been a single person on here who disagrees with nerfing donation perks, except for you. Even the people who already have the timelord rank have agreed.

    And when everyone agrees to nerf their own perks, you know something is wrong.

    I have never seen something like this happen, before today. It's like if 100% of the people had agreed they wanted to nerf firemind, or juggernaut.

    I understand that you need money to run the server. I don't know the exact numbers for the marketing of a server, but I do know there are other ways to do it without charging for OP perks. People will donate for lesser perks if TIMF becomes more popular. And it won't become that much more popular the way it is now. You keep telling us that you aren't greedy for money to grow the server. I want to believe you, I really do, but based on your responses today, you don't seem to be proving that false.

    I apologize that this post may look a bit aggressive. But your response to me seemed like a slap in the face.
    I take this server very seriously. I have tried to bring up this topic in a mature way, and I would appreciate if you would return your respect to the community by giving us the reasons for your decisions.
    If you can't give the public the respect they deserve, I will not be returning to Project Mayhem.

    If you have a reason you have the kit items the way they are, there's no reason you can't say it publicly.
    Prove me wrong and explain your reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
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  18. Rod337

    Rod337 Well-Known Member

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    Do you want me to tell you so you can steal our techniques? Go figure it out on your own sorry
     
  19. Rod337

    Rod337 Well-Known Member

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    tl dr:
    Kits are op and it would take 4.5 days to buy them legit, (considering you have the best luck in enchanting, and with a generous value of 1 hour=1 god apple)
    They should be less op, starting at prot 1 iron, and ending with prot 1 diamond. Also, things like /repair and /benchmark should be unlockable for non doners.

    Thats just a small description, I recommend reading the whole thing.
     
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  20. maxben34

    maxben34 Owner Owner Developer

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    Do you want the honest truth?

    I've had a really bad day, I'm currently depressed, and seeing threads like these doesn't help. I can't be bothered to respond to a thread when I'm feeling like this, so I can then get involved in an argument that at the end of the day comes down to things that nobody in the thread is yet to recognize or mention.

    As I asked, @MutatedGwape came on teamspeak and I discussed it with him. I believe he seemed to understand where we were coming from when we decided to make the rank perks.

    You must understand that I'm very understanding of the community's opinion most of the time. However, this is a rare case where people need to be patient and understand that there is far more to it than meets the eye.

    I may go into more detail about it when I'm up to it, but tonight most definitely isn't the night for me.
     

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